Date:
Attendance
Board Members
Present: Scott Webber, Jim McCann, Joe Nicoloff, David Decker,
Don Austin
Gary
Kluckman and Jason Hicks.
Quorum Present:
Yes
Others Present
Holishor Members Present: 21
Glenn Dalton and Kellie Crider from Holishor Office
Proceedings
Meeting called to order at
Pledge of Allegiance Recited
Minutes of
Action: Jim
McCann motions to approve, Don Austin seconds.
Motion carries
Bills & Salaries
Action: David
Decker motions to approve, Joe Nicoloff seconds.
Motion Carries
Profit Loss Budget
Action: Non Needed
Transfers of Property
Action: David
Decker motions to approve, Jim McCann seconds.
Motion Carries
Manager’s Report
Given by Glenn Dalton
Security Report
Given by Glenn Dalton
Treasury Report
Given by David Decker
Action: Don Austin motions to approve, Jim McCann
seconds
Motion Carries
Correspondence
Read by Joe Nicoloff
Action: None
Needed
Old Business
Su Twan Dam Update
Glenn Dalton:
We are continuing to monitor it. The leak is consistent and has not increased
or decreased. Someone vandalized the outflow pipe to Su Twan, they filled it
with Rip Rap.
319 Project
Glenn Dalton:
Looking now at start date of 2-3 weeks, they are coming out next week we will
walk the property and come up with a start date. Going to take pictures and
email progress to the Board of Directors.
Fireworks Contract
Action: Jim
McCann motions to approve the
signing of the contract for 3 more years and ask forgiveness on the within 70
days, David Decker seconds.
Conversation Ensues
Motion Carries
Covenant Voting
Joe Nicoloff:
Should have the final ballot and the updated proxy is here. We will have 1750
voting lots for the Covenant Voting; for them to pass we need 2/3 majority
vote.
Motion Carries
Boat Lift Rule
Read by Joe Nicoloff
Proposed Building Rule Change
As Written
BOAT LIFTS: They shall
be included in the dimensions of boat docks and shall not exceed beyond those limits
As Proposed
Free Standing Boat and Watercraft lifts:
Free standing boat and
watercraft lifts are allowable on all Lakefront building lots.
The location and installation requirements shall be as follows:
The setback distance from either of the property lines shall be a
minimum of five (5) feet, and that setback must be maintained up to twenty (20)
feet into the lake. All parts of the
lift, except for the canopy, may extend into the lake a maximum of sixteen (16)
feet on the main lake and twenty (20) feet on the fishing arms and coves. However, no part of the lift shall extend
greater than 20% of the distance across any cove. If the lift has an attached canopy, that
canopy may extend an additional six feet into the lake as long as it is not
deemed to be a hindrance to water traffic and does not extend more than 20% of
the distance across any cove.
All lift installations require a HSBARC building permit. The request for permit must include a
dimensioned drawing of location, showing all property lines, setbacks and the
location of the lift on the lot along with the lift dimensions, anchoring
methods and description of flotation materials if required.
If a boat lift that has been properly
placed with an approved permit is removed for maintenance or winter storage, an
additional permit is not required for the ensuing placement, if the same boat
lift is used, and it is placed to the same requirements of the original
permit.
The property owners of all
non-conforming lifts and docks as of the date of execution of this rule change
must submit a variance request to the Building Committee. There will be no charge for the variance
request on pre-existing docks and lifts.
These variances shall be submitted to the Board of Directors for
consideration and filed in the member’s permanent file. (
Conversation Ensues
Action: Jim McCann motions to approve as presented, Don Austin seconds
It is now on record and will be voted on at the September 14th meeting.
Conversation Ensues
New Business
Scott Webber:
member came forward concerning wakes, Rich Hertel, he was here, we took a straw
vote to have the board look into it, and it was tied. We passed it onto three
committees, what came back were 3 recommendations, one was a baffle system in
front of seawalls, they said that they were a problem, it would dissipate the
waves. Boating committee came back interested in weights of boats, then height
of seawalls. They came back to us, obviously no one talks about wakes during
the winter, it got put on the backburner, rich put an article in the Holiday
Times, please be courteous to one another, people spend a ton of money on
seawalls and people spend a ton of money on boats. I will entertain any other
Open Floor business before we get into this discussion.
Open Floor
Gerry Theodore 1346: I want to bring up a subject that came up at the last meeting, it was
from Mr. Behme, it involves a not paid up dues member, that he had a permit to
get a dock and he was not in good standing. In fact he is finishing a dock that
was started 12 years ago, he doesn’t follow any rules out here, we fine him,
the money just builds up and he never pays us. Now the docks are on Association
Property except where they attach to his land, we could go and saw them off, but
we would not do that without the board’s involvement anyways. I know that this
individual has been a problem for many years, I know that Glenn has made
efforts to get somewhere with him. I thought that the board was in the process
of doing something with this individual but I found out that there was nothing
going on. I want the board to know you have a problem member out here.
Glenn Dalton:
We know and the board is looking into action on him, and we are talking to the
Attorney.
Gerry Theodore:
It is nice to know that there is some action being taken against him.
Art Surgant 1812: I got a fine in the mail for not having a sticker on my boat. When I
moved out in
Glenn Dalton:
One of the things we are always looking at is watercraft that doesn’t have a
valid decal. Art I really don’t have anything personal against you or anything
else, but when I try to enforce the rules I do it across the board. It has to
do with the interpretation of the rules, if you go to the boating rules on page
2 (he reads the rule on decals) the decals expire on April 30th of
the year so to be on the water you have to have a valid decal. People have a
problem when you get into the bylaws (Reads the bylaw) we have a distinction
between a boat being on a lift, I can’t touch those. Water Craft on lifts and
on land shall not be considered in use. From my perspective any boat that is
not on a lift or not on land is in the water. I have written a lot of citations
here where people have their stickers but have not put them on the boat. I ask
that if you have your sticker, install them immediately. Art I apologize for
this happening but I have to do what I did.
Jim McCann:
Punitive Fines Committee, you have the right to appeal, that is the simplest
thing to do.
Rich
Hertel 679: Back in April, I appeared before the board and
discussed my concerns regarding excessive waives and its impact on the safety
of boaters, fishermen and the potential of property damage to main ski lake
properties. Large waives have increased in size the last two years mainly due
to the operators of large heavy boats who for some reason like to drive just
before plane thus creating a large wake and professional ski boats (like Supra,
Tiega, Moomba, MasterCraft and etc) that can activate wake enhancement devises
at the push of a button for the sole purpose of creating large wakes so that
their occupants can have a large wake to wake board on. Wake enhancement
devises include wake blades and water ballasts capable of holding up to 1900
lbs of water. This drops the boat lower in the water and at slow speeds and according
to manufactures can increase wake sizes to over 3’ from a normal wake. I called
all these manufacurers. Without the wake enhancement devises the boats (if they
are 22’ and under) are legal and actually produce a very small wake excellent
for the ski club, skiing, tubing and etc. having been on Ski Club for many
years back in the 80’s they were perfect boats. The Board commented in summary
and has been recommending replacing fixed sea walls to rip-rap. In their
opinion this would reduce the problem significantly.Taking this into
consideration my wife and I counted the sea walls in the main ski lake area
from the dam to the turnaround at the ski beach and did not include the small
ski coves nor the fishing cove. We counted 67 rip-rap walls and 110 fixed walls
of which the clubhouse is the largest. Considering an average cost of $5,000
walls which is conservative, for 100 fixed walls the cost could easily exceed
$500,000. Which seems an un-reasonable and un-necessary expense for main
lake property owners.In discussing this with former Board members they advised
me that in the late 90’s there was a push for just the opposite. To beautify
the lake it was recommended to install fixed walls. This is a 180 turnaround
from then. In my opinion after my research, I feel that there should be
recommendations to prohibit the use of any type of wake enhancement devise. If
this is something that the Board cannot legally act on I strongly recommend
that it be placed for vote at next year’s annual ballot. Lake traffic has been
bad enough on holidays and weekends and now it is even worse for boaters,
fishermen and for property owners.
Ric Stephenson 2001: I support the speaker, let me give you an analogy. We all live out by
a regional airport, when we all moved out here we all recognize that we lived
next to an airport. There would be uproar right now if it were to become a
large major metropolitan airport. When we moved out here to this lake we
acknowledged it was a ski and boating lake. But anything that adds extra wake
destroys what this lake was all about when .I think the board needs to address
that.
Ray Skipanski 676: Rich is my neighbor in the cove, I am right at Fishermen’s cove, I can
see the waves coming, they don’t effect me, but the effect Ernie and the roll
in. when they hit his property they roll off his property and right up into
Riches yard. I would like to request this, I moved here in 96, my wife and I
got a new seawall built. When they did the new seawall in 2000 it looked good.
Then in 2005 I went to look at it and got the shock of my life, the seawall had
cracked in half cause it had washed all out. That whole thing fell in and it
was a disaster. It had to reinforced, the pier had sank at the boathouse. Rich
came over and asked if I needed help and I said no but I needed to get it
fixed. I have these photos here if you would like to look at them. Its now what
you see now when the water is at full pool, its when it goes down and you get
the surprise of your life. Scott Hasse was my contractor. The floor was
completely cracked, and the water was getting under there and churing. The back
side fell down at least 4 inches. If it was done by original wake, what is
going to happen next? There was a ton of money put into this. It was reconstructed
to keep it from happening again. Do you want to see these pictures?
Scott Webber:Absolutely
Monte Thus 6:
I live by the dam, I am the 3rd house from it, I have a riprap
seawall, I highly recommend to the building committee that anyone who wants to
update their seawall to go with Riprap. That one solution to take care of the
waves, on Saturdays and Sundays, you are getting every wave on the lake. You
have Mother Nature, vertical walls, you mentioned
Norma Wilson 671Y: I have a rip Rap wall, I can’t get enough rip rap, it is still not
enough with how the boats run today. This one boat comes within the 75ft, I
swear you could look 3feet up from the wake, that is ridiculous to have that
out here. If they want to do that kind of stuff let them take it to a big lake.
Scott Webber: Have you called
security about that boat?
Norma Wilson 671Y: No I have not but I look at it and go, Good Gosh that was like a
barge. But it was really deep and it was right next to my property. This was
last year. I couldn’t believe what I saw. There are some big boats out here,
isn’t there a rule on how big they can be?
Scott Webber:
22ft
Norma Wilson 671Y: if its any bigger then that we should report it?
Scott Webber:
Pontoon is 28, ski boat is 22. But I was talking about if they come within
75fee of your property, call security.
Norma Wilson 671Y: I live on a point
and I just can’t get enough rip rap. I have also seen a boat close to the land
full of little kids, in just a little skid runner. I have seen pontoons out
here with to many people on them. There are to many problems out here and
someone is going to pay for it.
Henry Halverson 1829: I don’t mind being labeled a wake boarder but it
might be offensive to wake boarders. Seems like there are a couple different
issues being presented, One issue is property damage and the other is usability
of the lake. I guess my opinion is, if you buy a property on the main channel you
have to maintain your sea wall in accordance with the wave action on the main
channel. I am sure it’s increased since you bought your property. The second
issue in terms of usability of the lake for everybody, that should be
concerning all members of Holiday Shores, I don’t think that singling out one
particular group like the wake boarders or the skiers, I would not be in favor
of that. This has always been a lake that has catered to a number of different
activities; Never gone after one particular group. Wake boarders are generally
courteous to other boaters, they are not drinking. As part of the boating
committee with Monte we did make some suggestions to the board concerning wake
restrictions and seawalls, it would be easier to control. Trying to control the
boater is going to be very difficult for our security team to control. We have
seen the people run with the exhaust up, it dosen’t seem like we are
controlling that very well. I don’t see how we can control things that we
cannot detect.
Ray Garber 1822: Just a couple thoguths, in trying to deal with the wakes to be a
safety issue and a property issue, it seems to be going forward, what can we do
to make the situation better. One thing that seems to be a common discussion is
a washboard in the bathtub effect, it seems like everyone agrees that there is
some sort of effect. Through the building committee and take have some specific
rules in regards to seawalls to mitigate that and it would be better for them
and better for others and wither its rip rap in the front or going to only rip
rap or some type of baffling system te lessen the waves going back. Also it
would seem to me that the height of the seawall is somewhat important. I have
seen over the years when the water is high that someone’s seawall is topped,
others are fine. We could have a height for the seawalls and docks that might
help some people in initial costs. The harder part is the waves don’t come from
no where, they come from boats and I think that there are boats that by nature
do not produce excessive wakes but I would maintain that operated correctly
like making wide turns could cause excessive wake. It may not be the boat but
the operator and its up to Public Safety and us to maintain the safety. We are
talking about people on the wake and capsizing, we need to look at other communities
to see how they are handling excessive wake. We need to make an attempt to
define excessive wake. Its not easy, if Rich here has a big problem and every
other hour there is wake over topping his wall then we need to have a security
guard sit on his dock and watch to see who causes the wake. I don’t think its necessarily
the equipment.
Scott Webber:
We did go to
Kevin Cheely 33:
I had a seawall when the lake was new, I have had both kinds. I have to work on
them every time the lake comes down. If I tried to put riprap on that it would
be well out into the cove which my neighbor has. I have a sidewalk and there is
no way of raising that. My neighbor put his in higher than mine, on the rip rap
side of my seawall I had sprayed with (???) and the water runs pretty good over that. (I can hardly hear him) I
think that
Ray Skipanski 676: I don’t know that everyone knows where Rich Hertel lives but he lives
in Fisherman’s cove, I live right on the main channel. He is getting bombarded
with these wakes in that cove.
I don’t know who this is talking, without name or lot number I will not
enter it into the minutes.
Fred Obrock 364: Just has been an issue for a while, since this was the year to rebuild
the docks was there any recommendation to use riprap instead?
Scott Webber:
That would be with the building committee.
Fred Obrock 364:
wouldn’t that have made sense too? You knew you had an issue with the
elevations, there is nothing.
Scott Webber: First
of all they don’t come to the board for building permits. Its been in the
Holiday Times for a while now about the different recommendations that the
committees made.
Fred Obrock 364: then who is going to pay for this riprap?
Scott Webber: No it was not,
It was an owners expense.
Rich Hertel 679: I just want to clarify something; I am not on a crusade for me, which
appears to be what people are saying. I’m not trying to cry about this or
whatever, all I know is that the main lake ski properties have a risk that
seems to me being ignored to some degree. We have a potential risk to these
fixed seawalls to the tune of half a million dollars. 110 of them are out
there, a lot are good seawalls, now when these starts failing like mine did, and
that’s $6k that’s a lot of money. Now to say that we know that we recommend
that people put riprap in front of their walls, that is a lot of money and I am
not picking on the wake boarders I am really not. The ski oats that you have
are wonderful, we used them in the ski club. But when you add options to boats
that can increase the wake to over 3ft then I have a problem and I can’t
believe it is taken so lightly. I am doing this for the community not for me.
Joe Roth 1030:
I must compliment everyone, I thought this was a good discussion tonight, I
hope we can come to some solution together. We have a lot more boat traffic and
I am with Monte, what do we do!? If you can come up with a solution that makes
everyone happy and if you can you should run for a higher office, because this
is a problem out here and I appreciated everyone’s comments tonight. We are all
family out here whether we want to admit it or not.
Scott Webber:
To Joes point, that is why we are here; it is a very difficult question. You
mentioned a half million dollars in seawalls, well there is also a half million
dollars in boats too. We have to keep
all the members opinions and value them and I will say that I was on the lake
when every member gives their nephew their keys to the boat and they go running
around here. I was in my Pontoon boat and driving behind a buddy of mine, we
got swamped and only 1 wake board boat was on the lake. It was the 9000 tubers that
were on the lake. So when you get to talking about banning this that and the
other, where do you start banning? You could say wake surfing is an excessive
wake. I am not a wake boarder, but when I see them on the lake there are
generally 2 or 3. We mentioned a few boats that are cruising around in circles
and they put rollers out there. We have made recommendations; yes it is at the
home owners expense.
Monte Thus 6:
I am not disagreeing with you I feel for you but at my end of the lake right
before you turn to go to the dam, from my perspective if someone in the fishing
cove is getting that. I can see if you are making a left turn. It would be nice
if I could come over to your house and watch it so I can get a better idea of
what you are talking about. What I am saying is that from my perspective, I am
on a very busy turn, I get all the action and my seawall gets a lot of it. Some
don’t, we need to look at why a bunch of seawalls are not taking it. Yours is a
vertical and it isn’t taking it. Again it all comes to dollars. I want you to
know I am not against this but there is more to this than just wake boats.
There is Mother Nature, to many boats on the weekend.
Scott Webber;
Another question I have is, having a major flood named after me, I had an
entire dock and a seawall float back to my property during it. You talk about
your damage in 2005 well this was 2009; association rip rap was taken away.
Mother Nature did have a lot to do with some of the damage that needed to be
fixed.
Ray Skapinski 676 : I wanted to make a point, we are talking about Rip Rap, the house
that I am at it used to have a sea wall that must have gone bad and they must
have pushed it into the lake, so if you look at my photos there is 10 inches of
concrete and you will see a foot gap where I have had to have concrete filled
into. Now they had rip rap, they must not have had enough, this was before the
wake boats and it was bad but now it must be devastating. You don’t see it
until the water goes down.
Scott Webber:
I know we are having another meeting in 2 weeks, maybe there is something to
think about with the boats taking off and coming in. I can tell you that this
end of the lake (reffereing to the northern end) is the one that gets hammered.
Joe Nicoloff:
I have been watching and the wake from a normal ski boat is fine but then when
they come back the wake is 3 ft tall, they must be turning something on and
doining something because they are doing the same speed as when they went by
the first time. There is something being done to the boats to let them make
more wake.
Jason Hicks:
I really feel for several members of the community that have problems, I will
speculate that boat usage has increased in the past 30years, I assume. Types of
boats have also changed. I live on the main lake myself, I have seen a lot of
rollers and a lot of excessive churn, I don’t know that I can call it excessive
its dependent on the types of hulls, the weight we can all agree we have seen
overloaded pontoon boats. If you see 3 or 4 PWC’s out here doing donuts and
churning up the water as well so there is a lot of contributing factors.
Unfortunately for some lot owners on the main lake they are more susceptible to
damage on their property, call it excessive wake, types of boats whatever you
like but I think its just unfortunate that there are some properties that are
more susceptible to the natural flow of water. I don’t want to say that it
tough, I would love to come up with something that resolves these issues, some
people are going to be effected more than others.
Rich Hertel 679:
I have a question regarding boat sizes, I understand that when a boat is
registered for the lake we go by what is on the title. In my research I have
determined that there are a couple boats out here that exceed the 22ft length
by about 6 inches, is that something we should be concerned about, something to
be looked into? Its just the way they are titled. I looked at my boat and it is
17.6 inches but its listed at 17 on my title. Now that we are getting closer to
the line should we be concerned with that?
Scott Webber:
I would think that public safety looking for that and if a member sees that
they should call public safety.
Rich Hertel 679: Glenn what is your experience with that?
Glenn Dalton:
we have not been measuring what is on the water we just go with what is on the
title. If you want us to start measuring boats we will.
Conversation Ensues.
Scott Webber:
I know one boat was registered, later it was determined that the boat was to
long and we got the sticker back from the member.
Brian Sciranko 356: I just wanted a little clarification on that, and Glenn too. The
information on the title is not factored in when your boat is registered out
here as far as the length, it is the info taken off the IDNR registration and
it can be different than you title and I believe, correct me if I am mistaken,
information is taken off the IDNR registration because it is not as easy to
fudge as taking it off of the title.
Ben Kelly 858:
I Just want to follow up, I might be the only wakeboard boat owner out here in
the crowd today. I have a ski and a wake board boat, I was also one of the
brands mentioned here. I may have put 170 hours on both of my boats last year,
and less than 30 on wakeboating. I have hard time finding good water out here
to ski on and my daughter is one of the swivel skiers out here. We have trouble
finding good water when there are no other wakeboats on the lake. Saying we are
not going to let you use ballists or wake blades I mean, all that is going to
do is then we are going to reduce the amount of people in the boats because if
people want to wake they will just put extra people in the boat to weigh it
down. Will that effect your pontoon, then will they only be able to have a
certain number. If you go out on the weekends you can’t even find good water to
ski on and there are no wake boats. Just picking on that one narrow group is
just not the answer.
Art Surgant 1812: I can hardly understand him
Joe Nicoloff: It is putting out a larger wake. They are normally a ski boat but
you have the option to add ballast water etc and the only thing that I can
think that they are doing it adding extra weight.
Art Surgant 1812: There are ways of getting a wave started you can, what may look like
a small boat with a small wake, if you time it just right to hit another wake,
I am not sure how much that contributes (I cannot understand him)
Jason Hicks:
That is actually a practice called doubling up, it is done on purpose where
they drive into their own wake but I have never seen it done out here. \
Art Surgand 1812: I can’t understand him
Jim McCann Motions to adjourn motions, seconds. Don
Austin seconds
Meeting Adjourns at