Present: Scott Webber, Jim McCann, Don Austin, David Decker, Joe Nicoloff
Ray Garber and Gary Kluckman
Quorum Present: Yes
Holishor Members Present 17
Glenn Dalton and Kellie Crider from Holishor Office
Meeting Called to order at 7:30pm
Pledge of Allegiance Recited
Transfers of Property
Action: Ray Garber motions to approve, Gary Seconds
Scott Webber: Reminder that there is an executive session after this.
Su Twan Update
Glenn Dalton: As some are aware this spring we thought we found a boil from under Su Twan dam, we contacted the engineering firm and contractors and did some test digs. What we have found out is that it is probably not a boil and so we are still trying to determine where the water is coming from. We have found it is not tree roots or stumps. We have found tree limbs. That leads us to believe that instead of removing the trees they were pushed over and dirt was filled over the top. We have more research to do but it is looking like the dam was constructed with no Keyway. Back before Holiday Shores was developed the farmer just built himself an earthen dam. We have looked at safe and cost effective ways to go forward with this. Last week we briefed the Board on where we are with the findings. We are still trying to determine if it is a leak or a spring. We have determined it is not an emergency but it is a critical maintenance issue that needs to be addressed. We are still in the investigation phase. There are a couple of ways we could approach this. We could drop all the water out of the lake, no one wants that nor is it really a consideration until we can do a full investigation. Another way is to go to the downstream face of the dam next to the road, go in, construct a key way at that point and backfill the keyway; it would be a thick dam rather than a thin dam. These are all things that we will be looking at for the upcoming weeks and months.
Scott Webber: When do you anticipate us getting that French Drain?
Glenn: The front of that dam is so wet that I am afraid to do any type of excavation on that dam. Until we can get some soil stability we will not do it.
Covenant Voting Process
Scott Webber: The Board should have three documents in front of them. We had some questions that were sent to the attorney, one was the date of record, and we have set that at May 13th. The next one has to do with how votes are counted, we have talked through the process of verifying that people have voted, what Dave Gerber said is we can count the number of ballots but not how they have voted.
Joe Nicoloff: If you look at the packet through this interpretation by Gerber, the Board we will have to call an end to the vote then the ballots will be opened by our auditors. There is a question if we want to do a partial count half way through the election to see if we have enough but he says we cannot do that we have to close the vote and then open ballots.
Scott Webber: We need to set our number higher rather than 2/3 quorum up to 2000.
Ray Garber: the only thing that would help us go quicker is by the number of proxies we get. If we encourage people to do that it would save time and expense.
Joe Nicoloff: The first proxy will be at the annual meeting, they will be able to sign off when they leave the meeting. After the Annual Meeting we will send out a ballot to the membership, with no proxy. They will be available at the association office.
David Decker: Is there a reason we want to make this a secret vote?
Scott Webber: Our methodology is to make sure that this is hard to be contested.
Joe Nicoloff: We will know that they have not voted but we won't know what they are voting.
David Decker: My question is, does this have to be a secret ballot, and can we have on the envelope something to determine if this is a yes or a no? Before I started off on my tangent, Joe you were asking if there is any privacy on the proxy, this may be a question for the attorney but my thought would be no cause they are giving their vote to another member to vote on. I would rather see what the lawyer has to say
Scott Webber: I don’t necessarily agree with that. We have one meeting left to get this done and an awful lot of work and we have chosen a path. I am not saying it is the right path but we have chosen the most conservative less challengeable path we can..
David Decker: I would rather hear what the lawyer has to say. To your point, the amount of effort that has gone into this, lots of work and preparation I would hate to see it fail because we missed by 10 votes because we can’t count the votes as they come in. My opinion is we check with the lawyer again.
Jim McCann: Glenn can you contact Apple Canyon and see how they did the voting? I am not saying I want to do it their way but it took them four(4) years to complete them so they must have learned an awful lot in that process. I know it was an expensive process for them to go thru.
More Conversation Ensues.
Scott Webber: One thing we do need to do is amend is our vote on Partial IDs
Joe, you need to check with Gerber to see if it has to be a secret Ballot.
Jim McCann: Why don’t we vote on this all at one time so we don’t forget what we have and have not done?
Scott Webber: This all needs to be voted on at the next meeting.
Repair the 1Ton Truck
Action: Jim McCann motions to approve the 1 ton truck, Joe Nicoloff seconds.
Bid from Valley Contractor for replacing 5 Culverts for $6,964.00
Action: Don Austin motions to approve the bid for $6,964 from Valley Contractors to replace culverts on Trinidad, Westview, Acapulco, Waikiki and Fountain Bleu, Ray Garber seconds.
Maintenance Building Roof Leaking
The maintenance building roof is leaking and Glenn believes he has found a person who has been recommended that does this work for much less than anyone else, but he has no figures as yet.
Action: Glenn to get more information.
Nancy Dallas 695: I am president of the Garden Club, as you know our project was to get new gates for Holiday Shores, and you said I couldn't do it till I had all the money. I am here to tell you I have all the money now, so I am ordering them all tomorrow morning!
Scott Webber; Thank you and the Garden Club for getting the Funds to do that
Gerry Theodore 1346: I want to remind you or bring up to you the rule regarding boat lifts we discussed last week with the need for permit to place a boat lift, one thing that is an unintended consequence is that some people take their boat lift out annually and it was not our intention to charge them every year. They clean them up. You might want to look at that rule and put something in there about that.
Don Austin: Gerry, I have it written and submitted, but I will send to you and you can add what you need to.
Rich Hertel 679: As a result of the meeting two weeks ago regarding the wake issue I brought up, you requested me to get a signed petition to get people to discuss this issue... Upon visiting with my friends they decided that would be mute so we are going another direction. What we are proposing to do is on the June Edition of the times there will be an article in there that briefly discusses the issue of excessive wake and asking people to come to the June meetings to discuss it in open venue. I am getting a lot of interest, I hope the turnout is good and I hope the memo reads well. Glenn has helped me, no secrets; we are trying to do it the right way. Any questions for me?
Scott Webber: You are right as a member and we look forward to the discussions.
Jon Pretti 393: I would like to get a clear definition of excessive wakes.
Scott Webber: I think that is part of the conversation going out in the letter unless you want to talk about it tonight.
Jon Pretti: I would before a memo goes out.
Glenn Dalton: It is under careless and reckless operation in the bylaws.
Glenn shows the bylaw to Jon,
Jon Pretti: How do you determine what is a hazardous wake or excessive wake
Glenn Dalton: That would have to be a subjective call. This is one of the things we have to work with the IDNR to see how they determine it. For example if I was standing at the public boat dock on the other side of the Beacon and have a boat tied to it and I am standing on the dock and a wave washes over that dock I would say that is a Hazardous wake
Scott Webber: If that is your definition why are we not out writing tickets?
Glenn Dalton: If we see incidents like that we will, but it is difficult to do because by the time the wake hits the dock that boat is out of sight.
Jon Pretti: If you count damage that is done to boats because they are banging the docks you would have to write a ticket for all boats.
Scott Webber: Does Wake surfing cause excess wake in your opinion?
Jon Pretti: My status of facts that was started on the Face book community page that wake surfing would generate excessive wake because you do not have a boat on plane. So yes that would be excessive.
Jim McCann: How big would that wake be? How big of a wake would one need to surf?
Jon Pretti: Depends on many factors, probably about 10mph, which would be about a 3 or 4 foot wash coming off the back of a boat. I have wake surfed out here I haven't done it in several years. You can't do it behind an outboard; you need a ski boat or inboard boat.
Jim McCann: Can you tell everyone what wake surfing is?
Jon Pretti: You basically take a rope like you are skiing; you weight the boat to one side, that rope length puts you within arm length of the boat. If you are good you don't need the rope to surf the wake. You just ride the front of the wave.
Jason Hicks 1995: I really like to stress the excessiveness of the wake is completely arbitrary, if you take a look at no wake areas and excessive could be anything that disturbs a boat at rest. I live in a no wake cove and my boats are constantly jutting back and forth and I have no wake. People do donuts around my no wake buoy. I think that there are other things we need to look at like safe and acceptable boating activities. I have seen drinking on boats, overloaded pontoons, just look at the ski show. You might have two boats out there and all other traffic is stopped and it gets really choppy out there. Just be careful if you start restricting because everyone wants to enjoy the lake and everyone that lives on the lake it takes money to maintain it.
Darren Onwiler 301: I know there are a lot of people out there that think this is a wake board issue and we have determined in the last couple of weeks that it is not 100% the case. I think this is something that can be solved by enforcing our current laws on the lake. It’s a common sense issue and courtesy. When we want to wake board we want what is known as glass. We go out early in the morning when no one is out there to get the best water that we can. When the lake is packed with people, especially at $4 a gallon I will not be out cruising. My family owns Lake Front property and we spend money on the seawall maintenance and on boat upkeep. I am on both sides of this. I would like something to come about where everyone is happy, where we are not restricted with our boats and something that makes both sides happy.
Rich Hertel 679: I appreciate the comments, people made valid points. Mine is that this lake was not designed for this kind of activity, when we have to artificially drop a boat deeper in the water so a kid can surf a wave that damages docks and seawalls we need to look at that. It’s not just the seawalls it’s the normal people just cruising on the lake. I empathize with you but something needs to be done. There are some people that ride at a 60degree angle and you know who I am talking about. But when you have to put 1000lbs of water in a boat to make bigger wake then that is excessive. I repaired my dock for $6,000 and I don't feel that I should put out that money so that 15 or 16 people can put out excessive wakes. My Grandkids are P.O'd at me for coming up here, but where does it end?
David Peters 58: I want to back up what Jason Said. I am also in Ski Club and I am one of the drivers, I have an inboard direct ski boat, not a wake boat. We are right in front of the clubhouse and we have to take those ropes out to the docks and I have been slammed against those docks. Just two ski boats running and it is creating a massive wake because of that vertical sea wall. I have been driving the ski boat for 4 years now, we don’t drive 2 boat patterns out here that much because of how the water gets. But in recent years we have gone other places and done 3 boat pulls. These places have Rip Rap sea walls and I am amazed at how the wake dies down. I could not believe the difference going to these spots that don't have vertical sea walls.
Jon Pretti 393: Like to address the comments about appeasing 15-16 people would identify there is a specific target audience. Anyone can go onto Google and ask if Ski Boats make more wake. All manufacturers will say that their boats make the biggest and best wakes. I would like to invite you out in my boat to prove to you that my boat doesn’t create a 2-3ft wake. Now when we get into shallow water it will pull more and make it appear bigger. Building on what Ben said, for people to say that vertical sea walls are not the problem, there is no basis for that. You can prove it, I would invite you to take any type of boat you have, go down to the dam and see what happens when your wake hits the rip rap. It doesn’t come back. The Vertical walls it will hit, roll across the lake hit another and bounce back. The issue will still be the damage to the sea walls due to the amount of boat traffic on the lake. For you to say that 15-16 people are the sole source of damage is completely unfounded. A crowded lake with pontoons and runabouts all over the lake are not stirring it up, I beg to differ. I think you have valid points but to pinpoint a specific group is completely unfounded.
Rich Hertel: 679: If I picked on you I didn't mean it that way, it was not my intention. This case on the seawalls, It would be great if we could just go out and rip rap all the sea walls, if we were to do that who’s expense would it be at? I can't afford it, I know there are a lot of people who just put in new sea walls and they can’t afford it. This deal with the seawalls just came up in the July Holiday Times last year..
Scott Webber: Not true, it came up in an Annual Meeting 2 years ago where a member asked us.
Rich Hertel: So we have a two year issue here and nothing is getting done. Now we are starting to see it is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Like someone said let’s let Glenn do his job enforce it, we don’t have to make a new rule but it will be hard to define excessive wake. I have had the same seawall since 73 but now new technology says it isn't any good anymore. I know the message is getting out, let’s just enforce what we have, it is a common sense approach
Joe Roth 1030: We might have to get to a place where we restrict skiing to 3 days a week, I don't know, but you might want to think about it. I am scratching my head, but let me tell you about the Rip Rap too, I live down by the old creak channel. I have as big as boulders my wife can roll down that hill, every three months we had to replace those boulders. So I got a vertical sea wall, and I am sorry if it makes a wake but I have to protect my property because she is getting to old and I can't get any more boulders down there.
Scott Webber: If you want to put that in June that is your right as a member and I hope some good comes out of it for both sides.
Jim McCann motions to adjourn to executive session; Ray Garber seconds
Meeting Adjourned at 9:30pm
Minutes submitted by Don Austin board Secretary and Kellie Crider.